@ChrisMayLA6 There are good advisors out there, and they can be invaluable when it comes to helping people reaching their financial goals and realizing their dreams.
How do you find them? Today it is only based on reputation.
Yes, financial advisors are very much; buyer beware! Luckily I have too little to make it worth it... and in fact I have just transferred some of my savings I had experimentally put with a managed fund over to the passive fund I had the rest in as the former badly lagged the latter on returns....
@ChrisMayLA6 banks that would fit my mindset. Today, I would really like to be a customer of a credit union, but sadly there's only one left in sweden, and it is located in southern sweden. Due to the regulatory burden, I think they got regulated out of existence, and consolidated into bigger banks.
As for financial services, it is a cruel battle field. I had an "advisor" who managed to lose me about 30k EUR, but I take it as a good lesson! ;)
@ChrisMayLA6 There are good advisors out there, and they can be invaluable when it comes to helping people reaching their financial goals and realizing their dreams.
How do you find them? Today it is only based on reputation.
@ChrisMayLA6 This is an interesting and painful area for me as a libertarian. I love no regulations, and the way I try to justify my hate against banks as a business owner, is the governments regulation, and the fact that banks are basically a part of government. ;)
But some days I feel as if I should be more positive towards banks, as a good libertarian. ;)
I often dream what the banking landscape would be like without any regulations. Hopefully there would be more banks, and ideally
@ChrisMayLA6 banks that would fit my mindset. Today, I would really like to be a customer of a credit union, but sadly there's only one left in sweden, and it is located in southern sweden. Due to the regulatory burden, I think they got regulated out of existence, and consolidated into bigger banks.
As for financial services, it is a cruel battle field. I had an "advisor" who managed to lose me about 30k EUR, but I take it as a good lesson! ;)
@ChrisMayLA6 A lot... but the odds of that happening can be changed by trying to be in the right place and the right time, often.
Based on personal experience, the more sales calls you make, the more sales meetings you have, the bigger the chance that you eventually will be in the right place at the right time.
Yes, I completely agree; like so many claims, it really needs to be fully stipulated when claimed, but as you note seldom is.... so often, I find myself wondering what people's view of 'fairness' might be when I struggle to see how something they say is (un)fair is (un)fair
@ChrisMayLA6 Oh but that's the reason I asked the question. ;)
In so many political discussions an argument is that "it is not fair!" or "this is fair", but never do you hear the next part of the sentence... "according to me".
Seldom do journalists, politicians and hobby debaters dive into the question of what is fair, what does it consist of, does the type of fairness advocated, in fact hit the lowest classes, or only the highest? Short term or long term? Etc.
@ChrisMayLA6 Sometimes, this can be branched out into equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity, or envy, or negative long term effects etc.
It is an enormously interesting question, since fairness is used so often as an argument.
As for the unions, this is easy to explain. They are extremely crappy salary negotiators. I've never been a member of any union because of this, and because of ideological reasons, and I always gotten higher raises negotiating myself.
Strikes I find most often, to be unethical, depending on how they are done, and I never had the need for it. If I am unhappy I quit and find another job. Their benefits are also quite crappy, and I can buy better services, if I need
Why would strikes been unethical - surely, as per you previous remarks, is merely collective action by workers? Not dissimilar to a collective action by shareholders (via management) not to invest?
@ChrisMayLA6 Banks are satan! They want to take no risk, they offer no help to business owners, and they live in a happy oligopoly supported fully by the government.
And despite that, they dare to complain when the government wants to tax them?
For the love of god... if I had the full protection of the government and a oligopoly handed to me, why would I complain about a tax hike of a few percent here or there?
Banks truly are the enemy of business and common man alike.
We right in that shaded area of the Venn - absolute parasites.... there may have been good reasons for banks at the start of merchant capitalism, but now they are mostly as you say an oligopoly supported (facilitated) by the Govt. making 'super profits' while leaching off society - I'd likely include all of financial services by the same token
@stiefel_fan@ChrisMayLA6 For me, low wages is all fair game, as long as the employees are equally free to leave. In europe, where government social security levels are so high, and in some countries, where legal minimum wage is so high, artificially low wages just lead to people simply not taking the jobs.
Unions I have no problem with as long as the union members are not forcing people to join the union, or forcing people who are not union members to not go to work during a strike.
@h4890@ChrisMayLA6 But here - if I understood it correct - you are quite near the arguing which is preferrably used by right-wing and fascistoid parties. "Social assistance is so high, people won't work but enjoy social hammock!" Similar for minimum wages: "They will ruin the economy!" In my opinion the wages should be so that the employees can have a fair living with just one job for themselves and their family or children. Btw: In Germany you do not need to be member of a union.
@ChrisMayLA6 Hmm, luck is difficult to quantify. I don't see how this line of reasoning could be turned into fair and balanced action. Of course there are obvious cases, but those are far from the most common ones.
It would be fun though, to know how much of Elons wealth is due to government contracts, and how much is due to private individuals free, informed consent, when buying his products.
@ChrisMayLA6 Ahh... so that brings us to the question of... "what is fairness"?
Good information and education are both problems in our times. It seems that the trend for both, is downwards in most of the world countries. I assume exceptions exist, but the question is... do the modern politicians even want a well educated population?
The fact that so few copy the leaders in PISA seems to me to support the theory that they do not in fact want an educated population.
Fairness is almost impossible to pin down outside a personal moral reflection, I think, although (if I was to come over a bit Wittgenstein) there is likely a family of meanings which all show quite a lot of parallel and interconnected meaning.... so we might be able to say in general terms the sorts of things - such as reward for effort, rather than reward for luck (in life) and so on?
@ChrisMayLA6 business, it is again impossible to say where skill ends and where luck begins.
Some famous baseball player said, the harder I train, the luckier I get, and I think that is a very true statement.
@h4890@ChrisMayLA6 That's a good statement, I think! As for myself I started with the need of unemployment benefits and social assistance right after finishing my studies at the University. But then I was lucky chosing a job later, which was not only rising fast but also made fun (well, mostly 😜) until now. A close friend even had more luck and also worked hard on his career, so he's overtaken me by far. 🤷🏼♂️👍 What I really dislike 🤬 ...
@ChrisMayLA6 a region in Stockholm buying medical socks for 500 EUR a pair, which is just silly. I don't think anyone would cry if the company selling those socks had to leave some of their profits on the table.
As for luck, everyone has their good and bad days, and it would be impossible to balance it. I can live happily with my neighbour being lucky, and will rejoice with him. By its very nature, it is nothing that affects me, if we're talking lotteries and such things.
If we're talking
@ChrisMayLA6 business, it is again impossible to say where skill ends and where luck begins.
Some famous baseball player said, the harder I train, the luckier I get, and I think that is a very true statement.
@ChrisMayLA6 If we're talking venn diagram time ;) I'd be perfectly happy to do something about wealth which has been gained only by having the government as a customer. On the other hand, I do not know how that could be, while also not ending up in a situation where the government would have to pay more, or have less choice, since no one good would want to do business with the government if profits where regulated.
Then you have obvious bribes and government incompetence, such as
@ChrisMayLA6 a region in Stockholm buying medical socks for 500 EUR a pair, which is just silly. I don't think anyone would cry if the company selling those socks had to leave some of their profits on the table.
As for luck, everyone has their good and bad days, and it would be impossible to balance it. I can live happily with my neighbour being lucky, and will rejoice with him. By its very nature, it is nothing that affects me, if we're talking lotteries and such things.
my students were increasingly driven by a notion of fairness.... democracy is premised on good information & education, both of which have become subject to the whims (in many cases ) of the powerful - the post war period was by no means perfect, but in many ways more constructive than now, I think
@ChrisMayLA6 Did you ever have this conversation with your students? What made them passionate about democracy?
In terms of wokeness, how can it not undermine democracy? One premise is equality of outcome, which directly leads to an authoritarian system. Another woke tenet is that white males are worthless, which means internal struggle and war between classes, which in turn, does not make for democracy, but a majority oppressing the minority.
What levers of power are now blocked by the rich
@ChrisMayLA6 and what methods from an earlier phase are you thinking about?
@ChrisMayLA6 But we must remember, that inequality is nothing bad in itself, and just a consequence of peoples different abilities, priorities and laws of nature. It is an integral and important feature of our economic system, and removing inequality will hurt everyones quality of life, since it removes a strong incentive to work, and also, the feedback mechanism that determines when you are doing something right or not.
I'd agree that where inequality is related to personal/individual proclivities & actions then you're right; the key Q. is what about the inequalities that are not due to those individual actions, either due to the effects of luck & happenstance, or where inequalities are engineered by political processes.
If we could easily divide off these two aspects then politics would be a lot easier... perhaps the difference is to which aspect we give the benefit of the doubt?
@ChrisMayLA6 needs to be values and right and wrong.
If all is relative, no one is right or wrong. I think the wokeness perhaps, is undermining a stable culture, and taken to its extreme, is undermining democracy itself.
with only methods that really belong to an earlier phase of democracy - but now they seem viable again, because the normal routes of reform have become clogged with interest (expressed as wealth).
The only way change will come about is if the young en masse want it and organise for it - individual resistance can halted, mass resistance less so (although for me this is different from 'revolution', I can see some would see them as parallel).
@ChrisMayLA6 So a problem here is that we forget. All the bad things fade from memory and only the good things with authoritarianism are remembered.
How does one make people remember?
As the old guard dies off, the young ones have never experienced anything else, which makes it easier for authoritarians as well.
I wonder what made current young democrats passionate about democracy?
For democracy to work, a culture of democracy must be maintained. For a culture to be maintained, there
@ChrisMayLA6 needs to be values and right and wrong.
If all is relative, no one is right or wrong. I think the wokeness perhaps, is undermining a stable culture, and taken to its extreme, is undermining democracy itself.
@ChrisMayLA6 centric, your ego takes precedence over all others.
Do you think that distinction makes sense?
The reason I am trying to high light it is of course that I am a libertarian and an individualist, but I do have the capability of caring for others, and I do.
In heated debates online, this fact is very often forgotten.
I think peak-democracy was in the aftermath of WW2 - for a decade or so the recollection of what dictatorship could do, drove a generation to (for the most part) think about democracy & social democracy as the way to save humanity... as those memories faded, so did the notion of a democracy that sought to promote a general well-being.
I also think your distinction is correct; there's nothing to stop libertarian compassion; the distinction is more about what form social responses take
h4890's Posts
h4890 has 66 posts.
h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 There are good advisors out there, and they can be invaluable when it comes to helping people reaching their financial goals and realizing their dreams.
How do you find them? Today it is only based on reputation.
@h4890
Yes, financial advisors are very much; buyer beware! Luckily I have too little to make it worth it... and in fact I have just transferred some of my savings I had experimentally put with a managed fund over to the passive fund I had the rest in as the former badly lagged the latter on returns....
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 banks that would fit my mindset. Today, I would really like to be a customer of a credit union, but sadly there's only one left in sweden, and it is located in southern sweden. Due to the regulatory burden, I think they got regulated out of existence, and consolidated into bigger banks.
As for financial services, it is a cruel battle field. I had an "advisor" who managed to lose me about 30k EUR, but I take it as a good lesson! ;)
@ChrisMayLA6 There are good advisors out there, and they can be invaluable when it comes to helping people reaching their financial goals and realizing their dreams.
How do you find them? Today it is only based on reputation.
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 This is an interesting and painful area for me as a libertarian. I love no regulations, and the way I try to justify my hate against banks as a business owner, is the governments regulation, and the fact that banks are basically a part of government. ;)
But some days I feel as if I should be more positive towards banks, as a good libertarian. ;)
I often dream what the banking landscape would be like without any regulations. Hopefully there would be more banks, and ideally
@ChrisMayLA6 banks that would fit my mindset. Today, I would really like to be a customer of a credit union, but sadly there's only one left in sweden, and it is located in southern sweden. Due to the regulatory burden, I think they got regulated out of existence, and consolidated into bigger banks.
As for financial services, it is a cruel battle field. I had an "advisor" who managed to lose me about 30k EUR, but I take it as a good lesson! ;)
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 A lot... but the odds of that happening can be changed by trying to be in the right place and the right time, often.
Based on personal experience, the more sales calls you make, the more sales meetings you have, the bigger the chance that you eventually will be in the right place at the right time.
@h4890
A quantity theory of luck?
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Sometimes, this can be branched out into equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity, or envy, or negative long term effects etc.
It is an enormously interesting question, since fairness is used so often as an argument.
But when we say fair, what do we really mean?
@h4890
Yes, I completely agree; like so many claims, it really needs to be fully stipulated when claimed, but as you note seldom is.... so often, I find myself wondering what people's view of 'fairness' might be when I struggle to see how something they say is (un)fair is (un)fair
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Oh but that's the reason I asked the question. ;)
In so many political discussions an argument is that "it is not fair!" or "this is fair", but never do you hear the next part of the sentence... "according to me".
Seldom do journalists, politicians and hobby debaters dive into the question of what is fair, what does it consist of, does the type of fairness advocated, in fact hit the lowest classes, or only the highest? Short term or long term? Etc.
@ChrisMayLA6 Sometimes, this can be branched out into equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity, or envy, or negative long term effects etc.
It is an enormously interesting question, since fairness is used so often as an argument.
But when we say fair, what do we really mean?
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 @stiefel_fan
As for the unions, this is easy to explain. They are extremely crappy salary negotiators. I've never been a member of any union because of this, and because of ideological reasons, and I always gotten higher raises negotiating myself.
Strikes I find most often, to be unethical, depending on how they are done, and I never had the need for it. If I am unhappy I quit and find another job. Their benefits are also quite crappy, and I can buy better services, if I need
@h4890 @stiefel_fan
Why would strikes been unethical - surely, as per you previous remarks, is merely collective action by workers? Not dissimilar to a collective action by shareholders (via management) not to invest?
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Banks are satan! They want to take no risk, they offer no help to business owners, and they live in a happy oligopoly supported fully by the government.
And despite that, they dare to complain when the government wants to tax them?
For the love of god... if I had the full protection of the government and a oligopoly handed to me, why would I complain about a tax hike of a few percent here or there?
Banks truly are the enemy of business and common man alike.
@h4890
We right in that shaded area of the Venn - absolute parasites.... there may have been good reasons for banks at the start of merchant capitalism, but now they are mostly as you say an oligopoly supported (facilitated) by the Govt. making 'super profits' while leaching off society - I'd likely include all of financial services by the same token
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@stiefel_fan @ChrisMayLA6 For me, low wages is all fair game, as long as the employees are equally free to leave. In europe, where government social security levels are so high, and in some countries, where legal minimum wage is so high, artificially low wages just lead to people simply not taking the jobs.
Unions I have no problem with as long as the union members are not forcing people to join the union, or forcing people who are not union members to not go to work during a strike.
@h4890 @ChrisMayLA6
But here - if I understood it correct - you are quite near the arguing which is preferrably used by right-wing and fascistoid parties.
"Social assistance is so high, people won't work but enjoy social hammock!"
Similar for minimum wages: "They will ruin the economy!"
In my opinion the wages should be so that the employees can have a fair living with just one job for themselves and their family or children.
Btw: In Germany you do not need to be member of a union.
by Walter C. Smith ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Hmm, luck is difficult to quantify. I don't see how this line of reasoning could be turned into fair and balanced action. Of course there are obvious cases, but those are far from the most common ones.
It would be fun though, to know how much of Elons wealth is due to government contracts, and how much is due to private individuals free, informed consent, when buying his products.
@h4890
and also how much is due to being int the right place at the right time?
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Ahh... so that brings us to the question of... "what is fairness"?
Good information and education are both problems in our times. It seems that the trend for both, is downwards in most of the world countries. I assume exceptions exist, but the question is... do the modern politicians even want a well educated population?
The fact that so few copy the leaders in PISA seems to me to support the theory that they do not in fact want an educated population.
@h4890
Ha ha, just the easy questions please!
Fairness is almost impossible to pin down outside a personal moral reflection, I think, although (if I was to come over a bit Wittgenstein) there is likely a family of meanings which all show quite a lot of parallel and interconnected meaning.... so we might be able to say in general terms the sorts of things - such as reward for effort, rather than reward for luck (in life) and so on?
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 business, it is again impossible to say where skill ends and where luck begins.
Some famous baseball player said, the harder I train, the luckier I get, and I think that is a very true statement.
@h4890 @ChrisMayLA6
That's a good statement, I think! As for myself I started with the need of unemployment benefits and social assistance right after finishing my studies at the University. But then I was lucky chosing a job later, which was not only rising fast but also made fun (well, mostly 😜) until now.
A close friend even had more luck and also worked hard on his career, so he's overtaken me by far. 🤷🏼♂️👍
What I really dislike 🤬 ...
by Walter C. Smith ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 a region in Stockholm buying medical socks for 500 EUR a pair, which is just silly. I don't think anyone would cry if the company selling those socks had to leave some of their profits on the table.
As for luck, everyone has their good and bad days, and it would be impossible to balance it. I can live happily with my neighbour being lucky, and will rejoice with him. By its very nature, it is nothing that affects me, if we're talking lotteries and such things.
If we're talking
@ChrisMayLA6 business, it is again impossible to say where skill ends and where luck begins.
Some famous baseball player said, the harder I train, the luckier I get, and I think that is a very true statement.
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 If we're talking venn diagram time ;) I'd be perfectly happy to do something about wealth which has been gained only by having the government as a customer. On the other hand, I do not know how that could be, while also not ending up in a situation where the government would have to pay more, or have less choice, since no one good would want to do business with the government if profits where regulated.
Then you have obvious bribes and government incompetence, such as
@ChrisMayLA6 a region in Stockholm buying medical socks for 500 EUR a pair, which is just silly. I don't think anyone would cry if the company selling those socks had to leave some of their profits on the table.
As for luck, everyone has their good and bad days, and it would be impossible to balance it. I can live happily with my neighbour being lucky, and will rejoice with him. By its very nature, it is nothing that affects me, if we're talking lotteries and such things.
If we're talking
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 and what methods from an earlier phase are you thinking about?
@h4890
my students were increasingly driven by a notion of fairness.... democracy is premised on good information & education, both of which have become subject to the whims (in many cases ) of the powerful - the post war period was by no means perfect, but in many ways more constructive than now, I think
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 Did you ever have this conversation with your students? What made them passionate about democracy?
In terms of wokeness, how can it not undermine democracy? One premise is equality of outcome, which directly leads to an authoritarian system. Another woke tenet is that white males are worthless, which means internal struggle and war between classes, which in turn, does not make for democracy, but a majority oppressing the minority.
What levers of power are now blocked by the rich
@ChrisMayLA6 and what methods from an earlier phase are you thinking about?
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 But we must remember, that inequality is nothing bad in itself, and just a consequence of peoples different abilities, priorities and laws of nature. It is an integral and important feature of our economic system, and removing inequality will hurt everyones quality of life, since it removes a strong incentive to work, and also, the feedback mechanism that determines when you are doing something right or not.
@h4890
I'd agree that where inequality is related to personal/individual proclivities & actions then you're right; the key Q. is what about the inequalities that are not due to those individual actions, either due to the effects of luck & happenstance, or where inequalities are engineered by political processes.
If we could easily divide off these two aspects then politics would be a lot easier... perhaps the difference is to which aspect we give the benefit of the doubt?
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 needs to be values and right and wrong.
If all is relative, no one is right or wrong. I think the wokeness perhaps, is undermining a stable culture, and taken to its extreme, is undermining democracy itself.
Would you agree?
@h4890
with only methods that really belong to an earlier phase of democracy - but now they seem viable again, because the normal routes of reform have become clogged with interest (expressed as wealth).
The only way change will come about is if the young en masse want it and organise for it - individual resistance can halted, mass resistance less so (although for me this is different from 'revolution', I can see some would see them as parallel).
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 So a problem here is that we forget. All the bad things fade from memory and only the good things with authoritarianism are remembered.
How does one make people remember?
As the old guard dies off, the young ones have never experienced anything else, which makes it easier for authoritarians as well.
I wonder what made current young democrats passionate about democracy?
For democracy to work, a culture of democracy must be maintained. For a culture to be maintained, there
@ChrisMayLA6 needs to be values and right and wrong.
If all is relative, no one is right or wrong. I think the wokeness perhaps, is undermining a stable culture, and taken to its extreme, is undermining democracy itself.
Would you agree?
by h4890 ;
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h4890
In response to this post@ChrisMayLA6 centric, your ego takes precedence over all others.
Do you think that distinction makes sense?
The reason I am trying to high light it is of course that I am a libertarian and an individualist, but I do have the capability of caring for others, and I do.
In heated debates online, this fact is very often forgotten.
@h4890
I think peak-democracy was in the aftermath of WW2 - for a decade or so the recollection of what dictatorship could do, drove a generation to (for the most part) think about democracy & social democracy as the way to save humanity... as those memories faded, so did the notion of a democracy that sought to promote a general well-being.
I also think your distinction is correct; there's nothing to stop libertarian compassion; the distinction is more about what form social responses take
by Emeritus Prof Christopher May ;
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